You know, it is really interesting how that “tribal” identity idea is preached both by nationalists and multiculturalists – and it is not the only spot where those two overlap. It is some kind of childish denial (we are not fascists, really… it is old indoeuropean symbol, that swastika… sigh), combined with the insistence of beating certain subjects to death (anti-Semitism for example, which both exploit for political gains to a rather disgusting lengths, sometimes even attacking the actual Jew communities and outspoken people…) and a weird kind of fighting for a certain person/group, when at the same time trying to strip that target group of its identity (Muslim women for example, both insist that Islam is wrong and evil religion, when fighting… for Muslim women rights… like dear Muslim women, please abandon your culture, because it is the cause of all evil, then, when we free you from yourself, you will be happy…)…. when at the same time legitimizing own existence by pointing out the existence of the other side of the spectrum (aka we, nationalists, are needed because look at those tolerance idiots, or we, social justice warriors, are needed because look at those evil white men).

But going back to the topic… I am not sold on the tribal identities idea. I just don’t see tribal in Internet cultures, in the traditional, real tribal sense – and I am working with it for 20+ years. I see pre-nationalism though, at least in the European sense, think more of 17th-19th century Europe, when the borders were way less defined and class, not the nationality, were the main indicators of belonging (except maybe Jews and gipsies). You cannot call 18th century early industrial society a tribal one, even though it is not a modern national state.

Also about celebrations, what I find interesting is what kind of celebrations make it into the computer games or other global virtual environments. Usually it is Xmas (winter turn), Chinese New Year (light and fireworks), Mardi Grass/Valentine (love day), Easter (eggs and return of life), Midsummer(summer turn), Octoberfest/Harvest/Patrick’s day (drink and gorge), Halloween (candy, ghosts and death), with some smaller ones in between, like birthdays and other events significant to the particular community. Ofc most of them are striped to the bone of the archetype, as far as the narratives are concerned, but I see a lot of traditional in there, under the digital form. Maybe that’s what is actually happening, some of those archetypes need to be dressed in a new suit, but overall they are still there? I mean, similar process happened already, when the “pagan Europe” holidays had to be merged with Christianity, those that hit some core feelings about the world stayed, the rest faded away?

I think of my son-in-law, German via his mother and Irish via his father, whose veneration for his father, who fought in World War II (albeit in the Pacific and not on the Western front) is part of his claiming his Irish identity, raucously celebrating St. Patrick’s day with green beer and corn beef and cabbage, while paying less, if any attention, to Oktoberfest. I recall an anthropological question I have often asked myself: Why is it that there are so few cultures like the Scots and the Irish that seem so attractive that people of all sorts of backgrounds celebrate their holidays all over the world? Why is it that there are, for example, Japanese bagpipers and celigh dancers? It isn’t just the Scots and the Irish, of course. Japanese are also heavily into samba and hula and belly dancing. So what is going on here? The choice of celebrated holidays certainly depends in part on cultural transmissions shaped by imperialism and diasporas. Is this, however, the end of the story?

Hm I think the question of social relationships is an interesting one, especially when we speak about the next generation – the so called generation “game on” (kids who are 10-20 now). I think it makes sense to separate social relationships and SIGNIFICANT social relationships. In a traditional society those would overlap, but when a significant part of your young life /relationships passes online, where nationalities do not matter (or at least do not carry much weight), there just might be no other indication? Only a DNA test to define your national affiliation?

I mean, ofc, there is a big question what are the actual reasons why people take those DNA tests – simple curiosity probably is the main one. However if they make that kind of commercial, it has to hit something in the audience, some kind of existing belief? There I am curious what it might be? Sure, there are some cases of abuse, radicalism, etc., but while we look at those, we might be missing the general shift, a shift in erasing nationality as one of the self identification criteria? I mean, if we have lets say a German kid, growing up in English society, he probably would have at least some questions who he/she is?

Also when we look at “If Kyle grew up with all of these German cultural practices, that gives us a reflection of the social relationships he was a part of”… imho we also have to consider an increasingly individualized identities. I remember reading in one of the interviews with the new English princess, where she discussed her identity (I am sorry I do not remember the link quickly) – when she was a kid, she had to tell if she was black or white and she could not answer the question. Then her father suggested her to make “your own box” – and I would think these kind of interviews carry quite big role in shaping the public views. I think we are dealing with a lot of “own box” stuff in the modern culture, the “cult of Self”, where relationships do not matter that much, unlike in a traditional culture.

There I also think of some of my research kids, who spend about 5-10 min/day talking to their parents and about 5-10 hours online, talking in English in nationality-void environment. One of the parents described it as their REAL life, and their actual language and customs are just well, to deal with surrounding older people when necessary, but it does not carry any value and it is increasingly difficult to relate to your own kids value wise. I wonder if those DNA tests/commercials are part/indication of this shift?

“Hm, I feel a few points are missing from this discussion. What if a hypothetical Kyle did not feel he was German, even if he was raised that way? Can he take that DNA test and learn the other culture? Which feels more right to him than what he experienced at home?”

One of the points here is that cultural affiliation isn’t just about people taking tests and picking a new identity. It’s a matter of actual relationships. That was Tallbear’s point when she said it’s also about who claims us.

“It is a paradox, DNA test suggest you have inborn other culture, but aren’t you suggesting that Kyle had inborn German culture and can’t switch it, even if DNA test feels right to him?”

No, I’m not suggesting that Kyle’s German culture was inborn at all. The whole point here is that culture is not inborn. It’s not something in our DNA. If Kyle grew up with all of these German cultural practices, that gives us a reflection of the social relationships he was a part of. It’s not that his German culture was inborn, but rather that he learned these practices as he grew up (which is how culture works; again it’s not genetic). His cultural practices were an actual reflection of the social relationships and histories he was a part of, but this commercial suggests that all of that is somehow invalid because of these vague DNA results. These tests are basically a denial of his actual family history, which is one of the big problems with accepting them at face value.

Another thing, in anthropology we are taught to think that culture we learn… Until we start working with neurodiverse people. Cultural expressions of autistic people, or synesthesia, or afantasia do challenge the view that culture is learned, not something we are born with. Many geeks are geeky, because they are born with a differently wired brain. Would it not be wise to at least consider that there is something in those tests, which points towards the certain prefered cultural forms. Why people like them more and think they are more accurate than their upbringing?

And last… behind every machine there are people. Ancestry sites are run by people. It does not rise from the rule of the machines, but from the people trying to make sense from their national confusion. I was raised in CCCP… my nationality in that upbringing sense does not even exist anymore, times change. Maybe anthropology also should view these things not as just a machine data… most of the data is actually very personal and human. 🙂

What about it Cathy? I don’t understand what you’re trying to ask.